http://www.topix.com/forum/colleges/university-of-delaware/T2HL3JVCQQTVA35EL
My UD degree is WORTHLESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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perfectsplit
Killeen, TX
Reply »|Report Abuse|Judge it!|#1Aug 12, 2008
Judged:111
I have a BME from UD with a 3.225 GPA and I can't get a job anywhere! Noone will hire me. In every job I ever apply to, they always want 5-10 years experience doing exactly what the job entails. And I still have $31400 of student loan debt from my WORTHLESS degree!
I did everything society told me to do: I stayed in school, I said "no" to drugs, I didn't drink, I didn't smoke, I didn't gamble, I didn't have unmarried sex, I went to college, and I got my education. And now my only reward is to be treated like an EX-CON!
I would be better off making a living by selling drugs or robbing banks. Or maybe I should hire a team of mercenaries to take hostages and demand ransom, like Ed Harris did in that movie The Rock. At least that way I would be able to pay my bills!
DOWN WITH THE UNIVERSITY OF DELAWARE AND COLLEGE!
perfectsplit
Killeen, TX
Reply »|Report Abuse|Judge it!|#2Aug 12, 2008
I really HATE the way our society glorifies college. All those homeworks, quizzes, lab reports, tests, exams, midterms, finals, chapter readings, sleepless nights, boring lectures, and tyrant professors - all for what? To end up working at a call center for $8/hour? My BME is not even worth the cardboard it’s printed on! It's nothing more than an expensive placemat! None of my UD professors ever told me what a worthless degree I was getting! None of the UD officials ever told me I was going to be working at a call center making $8/hour!
All throughout the 80s society kept telling us the same thing over and over again:
“A high school diploma is not enough to make it in this world - you need to have a college degree”
“High school graduates only end up batching fries”
“Your chances of becoming an pro-athlete are next to nothing, but your chances of getting a career with a college degree are good”
“The way out of the ghetto is with a book, not with a basketball”
All the high school teachers kept telling us that we should be preparing to go to college.
All the TV shows of the 80s kept telling us how great college is, and how we can make it in this world with a college degree.
They kept telling us how college would open the door to a world of great opportunities.
The only opportunities I’m going to have are Wendys or Taco Bell!
College is the biggest legal ripoff in the country!!!!!!!!!!
perfectsplit
Killeen, TX
Reply »|Report Abuse|Judge it!|#3Aug 12, 2008
It's just like Chris Farley said,
"You're gonna be living in a VAN down by the RIVER!"
perfectsplit
Killeen, TX
Reply »|Report Abuse|Judge it!|#4Aug 12, 2008
It's just like that drug dealer said to the arresting officer in "21 Jump Street":
"You know what the biggest employer in the ghetto is? ROCK Man!" "They don't have career day down here in the Piedmont! Welcome to the real world, Mr. Pow-liceman!
I would have been better off selling drugs rather than going to UD and getting my worthless degree.
perfectsplit
Killeen, TX
Reply »|Report Abuse|Judge it!|#5Aug 12, 2008
Back in the 80s, college graduates were rare, so they were considered valuable by employers. Back then a bachelor's degree practically guaranteed a professional job. But since then, more and more people went to college, so now college graduates are no longer rare. Everyone has a degree now, and college grads have become a dime a dozen. With so many college grads applying for the same job, employers chose their candidates based on experience. It has rendered our degrees worthless.
The irony is that college educations have become more expensive since the 80s, costing nearly $1000/week. Some people are graduating with as much as $120000 in debt from student loans. Our degrees have become less valuable and cost more.
Now college grads have to move back in with their parents because the only job they can get with their worthless degree is flipping burgers at McDonald's. Some lie on the resume in a desperate attempt to get a job.
Society is still muddling in the muck of the 80's with the "College opens the door to a world of opportunities" crap, failing to account for all the screwed-over college grads flipping burgers at McDonald’s to pay their $30000 student loans.
perfectsplit
Killeen, TX
Reply »|Report Abuse|Judge it!|#6Aug 12, 2008
Judged:221
Maybe Cho Seung-Hui did our society a favor. Just think: that's 33 people who won't end up flipping burgers to pay off their mountain of student loan debt. 33 people who aren't going stress through exams, lab reports, and homeworks - only to end up with worthless degrees.
How many more people are going to avoid college because of Cho? That's how many people who aren't going to get ripped off! They're not going to waste the time, money, and effort into getting a WORTHLESS DEGREE!
perfectsplit
Killeen, TX
Reply »|Report Abuse|Judge it!|#7Aug 12, 2008
At some point they are going to have to start a charity fund for unemployed college graduates who can't get a job with their worthless degrees!
It really makes me sick when charities beg me for money when I have no job and a mountain of debt! It won't be long before I am begging alongside them!
good4nothingUDeg ree
Norwood, PA
Reply »|Report Abuse|Judge it!|#8Aug 17, 2008
Class of 04, and I still can't find a lousy job other than restaurant work. I have bunch of student loans that I am paying every month but my degree has proved absolutely worthless so far. Every interview I go through asks for experience. The funny or sad thing is these jobs that are rejecting me pay like $12 - $13 an hour, or no more than $22,000 a year, which is hardly enough to cover one's bill nowadays. I am still hopeful that I will get something in the future. So far though, a total disappointment.
Eureka
Troutman, NC
Reply »|Report Abuse|Judge it!|#9Aug 25, 2008
Wow, I'm glad to finally see someone else saying what I've been thinking. It is totally appalling how employers demand so much experience all the time. My college professors tried to brainwash students into believing that their degrees were going to make such a significant difference in their futures. Even though I gained a great deal of knowledge, college seemed like the longest 4 years of my life and what kept me motivated to get such a high GPA, as I did, was the thought of it paying off one day. I did everything society told me to do too. I made good grades my whole life, I didn't do drugs, I used to have ambition, and I tried very hard in all my classes, I graduated with honors in college...all for absolutely NOTHING. I've even considered working at a restaurant as a hostess or waitress or something. I'm also getting rejected for jobs that only pay about $9.00/hour. I'm used to rejection letters by now. It's so depressing. I've said many times over the last few months that it's amazing how society continues to tell such blatant lies to students. I do think college is great to gain a lot of knowledge just for the sake of learning, because I did learn more in one semester of college than I learned in all 4 years of High School, but for the money it costs, it's not worth anything in the job market. If I wanted to learn a lot I could have read a bunch of books, which I enjoy doing, instead of paying an arm and a leg to waste 4 years of my life taking tests, and losing sleep.
Spinocha
Indianapolis, IN
Reply »|Report Abuse|Judge it!|#10Sep 1, 2008
Judged:11
I just graduated with two equally worthless BA's--psychology and philosophy. Although my inner life has been deeply enriched, it seems as though I further alienated myself from the "real", working world. The only jobs available to me are jobs that only require a high school diploma...jobs that pay shit. In several respects, having college degrees is worse than not having any. I am in debt and no one wants to hire me.
Moreover, call centers are emasculating.(Have you seen "Office Space"?)
Ultimately, I think I am going back to school for an AA degree in some specific, technical degree.
Spinocha
Indianapolis, IN
Reply »|Report Abuse|Judge it!|#11Sep 1, 2008
Judged:2
I aquired a 3.8 GPA throughout college only to realize that I am actually the dumbest person I know.
Jeremy
Saint Louis, MO
Reply »|Report Abuse|Judge it!|#12Sep 17, 2008
In December 2005 I graduated with a B.A. in Video Production from a highly touted university in St. Louis. I immediately was offered a job with a local production company for $9.50/hr. That sounded great except for the fact that I was already making $11/hr at my part-time retail job. I turned that part-time retail job into a full-time retail job while I looked for something in my field of Video Production/Communications.
After 2 1/2 years I found nothing and was still making around $20,000/yr in my retail job. I sent my resume everywhere including Canada and never got a single response back. I wrote e-mails to people at these companies and only got one e-mail back from a company in Canada that told me they liked what they saw but unfortunately could not hire me without a work visa there.
In the past 6 months I have moved to Los Angeles and volunteered for just ONE project for a non-profit organization and that lead to a job opportunity on a sitcom that I declined because it was 60 hours flexible hour anywhere between 12pm-5am for $560/week AND was only running for a few months before the show would go on a break until it was picked back up. If I am going to work 60 hours a week it had better be for at least $40,000/yr. Working 60 hours does not even give me time to find a second job!
Anyway, I have moved back to St. Louis and have been looking for a job every day for the past month and I do get calls from companies...you know, the ones where they say you will be making $100,000 in your first year. All others don't even respond to me.
I feel like since I have 10+ years experience in retail that I am now doomed to work that for the rest of my life, despite also having 3 years experience producing videos for several non-profit organizations and also working on a few projects out in LA where I was making just enough money to scrape by.
It is amazing, but comforting to see, that I am not alone in this struggle. Our whole economy sucks right now, but I don't think that desiring to make enough to actually save for my retirement is too much to expect with my degree and my $30,000 debt from it.
rick
Philadelphia, PA
Reply »|Report Abuse|Judge it!|#13Oct 1, 2008
Judged:21
it may not get much better for any of you if our government stays the course it is on...big business is in control...with no anti-trust laws to worry about they have succeeded in screwing the working class...unions don't work well anymore since most are in alliance with big business too...it is all big money and greed...
I have a degree in zoology and 30 years experience in the "green industry"...I'm 60 years old now and haven't been able to find a job that pays much more than unemployment...and don't forget I have to pay income taxes on that next year...it's not enough to live on ,but why tax wealthy people more when you can get all that easy money from unemployment and waitresses' tips...go figure...the last 30 years of government has taken away most of what the working class struggled for during the 1900-1970 era...
wake up people---end the republican party's hold on our governemt...vote for obama and start to give control back to the people...
good luck america...
Marky Mark
Sewell, NJ
Reply »|Report Abuse|Judge it!|#14Oct 8, 2008
I totally understand the plight of everyone here. I have just graduated recently ( May 2008), with a B.A. degree in Biology. It is very challenging to find employment right now, especially considering this growth-challenged economy. I think the best way would maybe be networking (since that is the closest I had to possibly getting a job so far). I'm even considering earning some capital to start my own business, or SOMETHING. But obviously, to even get to that, i would need some sort of stable source of income. All factors considered, i am still being optimistic, that's all we CAN do... Good Luck to everyone...
kellyz
De Pere, WI
Reply »|Report Abuse|Judge it!|#15Oct 15, 2008
I feel ya! I graduated with a bachelors degree in mathematics with a minor in physics. I went on interview after interview and could never get a job. All companies really want anymore is experience. How can you get experience being a full time college student for 4+ years???? It took me 8 mo. to find a job after college and guess what, I'm only making $9.50 an hour with over $24,000 of college loans!! But still, you never know what the future holds. So keep smiling!
Curious Student
Wilmington, DE
Reply »|Report Abuse|Judge it!|#16Oct 21, 2008
Well we certainly won't be at the top of the totem poll when we graduate. My question to you guys is what professions are you looking for? Maybe try teaching? Maybe more interning was needed?
Let me tell you this: once upon a time a high school diploma was GOOD. Then, it was College. Next, a GRADUATE DEGREE.
Why? The extra mile is needed in this society because we have let more and more failures succeed more and more, downgrading the prestige of the degree, requiring other the next step to be better, until the process is repeated.
Giving up
New Brunswick, NJ
Reply »|Report Abuse|Judge it!|#17Oct 23, 2008
Well I have a graduate degree an MBA to be specific and two undergraduate degrees. This has amassed a total of 110,000 in debt and still every job wants more experience. These jobs include jobs that are only paying $11 an hour. Forget about anything related to the field I want to be in. I think that unless you are getting a professional technical degree such as medicine, law or specific science then there is no need to go to college.
man
Lumberton, NC
Reply »|Report Abuse|Judge it!|#18Nov 13, 2008
Judged:211
they kicked me out of the 9th grade for doing drugs so i got my ged i make 20 dollars laying concret only went to high school for 2 weeks
Biology is Stupid
Clarkston, WA
Reply »|Report Abuse|Judge it!|#19Dec 19, 2008
Two B.S. degrees from Washington State Uni. One of them is Crop Science Biotechnology with two posters and internships with lab experience. Still no jobs. I went to Korea to teach kids the ABC's for a year and kind of put off getting a real job for a while. For all the worthless Biology degree people out there you can get a great job being a fuc'n nurse. I have checked into it and it is about 16 months of school. Or go back to Korea for a year and teach English. But then you are only another year older and so is your degree with no f'n experience. YAY.
Lonewolf
Leesville, SC
Reply »|Report Abuse|Judge it!|#20Dec 19, 2008
Judged:111
man wrote:
they kicked me out of the 9th grade for doing drugs so i got my ged i make 20 dollars laying concret only went to high school for 2 weeks
It's fairly obvious that you missed out on an education.
Tuesday, August 16, 2011
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/peter-thiel-paypal-founder-facebook-backer-technology-key/story?id=13702907
PayPal Founder and Facebook Backer Peter Thiel on The Next Big Thing, and Why He Thinks College Isn't Worth It
Peter Thiel, founding investor in PayPal Inc. and Facebook Inc., speaks in San Francisco, Feb. 2, 2011. (Bloomberg/Getty Images)
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By LINSEY DAVIS, MELINDA ARONS and JAKE WHITMAN
May 27, 2011
"The future is limitless," said Peter Thiel, the billionaire PayPal co-founder, hedge fund manager and venture capitalist. If you were Thiel, you'd probably think so too.
The 43-year-old Thiel has become Silicon Valley's version of the man behind the curtain in "The Wizard of Oz" by creating or funding some of the most successful enterprises to come out of the technology world.
"I think technology is the key to a better future," he said.
After attending Stanford Law School and becoming a derivatives trader, Thiel co-founded PayPal when he was 31 years old. Now he's known as the Don of the PayPal mafia -- a group of braniac executives who ran the company and have since gone on to give birth to digital pillars like YouTube and Yelp.
"That was the very basic idea -- take dollars and email and try to combine them," he said of PayPal.
That combination turned into a billion-dollar empire. EBay bought PayPal in 2002 for $1.5 billion, putting around $55 million in Thiel's pocket, which he used to invest in promising media start-ups, most famously Facebook. His $500,000 investment in the social-networking giant is now worth about $2 billion.
Billionaire to Pay Kids to Skip College Watch Video
Social Media Faux Pas to Avoid at the Office Watch Video
'Plank' Exercise Kills Australian Man Watch Video
Being Facebook's first Silicon Valley investor earned Thiel the full Hollywood treatment -- complete with a portrayal in the Academy-award winning film about the company, "The Social Network." Thiel said he spent time studying all of the social networking businesses for a few years before sitting down with Mark Zuckerberg and his team.
"I basically told them I would invest after meeting with them for an hour or so," Thiel said.
Going on gut instinct is what has made the Thiel formula for entrepreneurship such a success, but it also doesn't hurt to be a genius. Thiel was a math phenomenon as a child and became a chess champion at age 18 -- in the top 2 percent of rated players in the world.
His competitiveness has carried over into what he calls breakthrough philanthropy, although some have described it as bankrolling eccentric ideas Thiel thinks can save the world.
"Technology is fundamentally about going from zero to 1," he said. "If you do something new, it will always look a little bit strange."
Thiel has donated millions of dollars to promote research into extending human life expectancy by reversing the aging process.
"I enjoy my life," he said. "I certainly would like to live longer."
Thiel also funds The Seasteading Institute, which is devoted to creating self-governing communities -- essentially floating cities that will be used to test new ideas for government -- in the middle of the ocean. To Thiel, the concept is harnessing a largely untapped resource.
"Seventy percent of the planet is covered with water, and there's so much we can be doing with oceans, and it was one of the frontiers that people have more or less abandoned," Thiel said.
"It's pretty far in the future, but closer than, say, building cities on the moon."
The latest venture Thiel has invested in turns the notion of higher education on its head. The "Twenty under Twenty" fellowship provides $100,000 scholarships to college students who drop out of school to start their own businesses.
"Learning is good, credentialing and debt is very bad," Thiel said. "College gives people learning and also takes away future opportunities by loading the next generation down with debt."
"We ended up picking 24 people to try to get them to work on very specific projects that would push the frontiers of science and tech in areas ranging from biomedicine to computers to robotics," he said.
PayPal Founder and Facebook Backer Peter Thiel on The Next Big Thing, and Why He Thinks College Isn't Worth It
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May 27, 2011
Peter Thiel Says Higher Education Will Be the Next Bubble to Burst
While some may scoff at his idea -- after all, Thiel does have a law degree from Stanford -- he said that pushing forward with your dreams at the right time can make all the difference.
"Facebook was started in 2004. That was the right time to start that company," he said. "If all the people had finished their college education and waited till 2006, it would have been too late."
Thiel's theory also happens to come at a poignant time. U.S. News and World Report said that people aged 20 to 24 entering the work force this year face an unemployment rate of 14.9 percent -- significantly higher than the overall unemployment rate of 9 percent. New York Magazine also said the worthlessness of a college degree was "one of the year's most fashionable ideas."
Billionaire to Pay Kids to Skip College Watch Video
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/peter-thiel-paypal-founder-facebook-backer-technology-key/story?id=13702907&page=2
Social Media Faux Pas to Avoid at the Office Watch Video
'Plank' Exercise Kills Australian Man Watch Video
After correctly predicting the dot-com crash of 1999 and the housing market bubble in mid-2006, Thiel said he believes that higher education will be the next bubble to burst. According to a recent study by the National Center for Education Statistics, an estimated 65 percent of recent college graduates are burdened by student loans. The New York Times reported that total student loan debt is expected to surpass the $1 trillion mark by the end of the year.
"The price of education on a college level has gone up by a factor of more than 10 since 1980," Thiel said. "Adjusting for inflation, it's gone up by about 300 percent – more than housing and tech stocks did in the '90s, or housing in the 2000s."
Thiel's constant questioning of society's norms has made him the poster boy for Silicon Valley libertarianism -- the belief among many entrepreneurs that government hinders innovation. But he is far from the typical conservative stereotype. Openly gay, Thiel endorsed Texas Congressman Ron Paul for president in 2008.
"I probably am a bit of an outsider in many ways," Thiel said. "That has good things and bad things about it. It does have the tremendous benefit of forcing you to think about what's going on fundamentally with institutions, with our society and then look for ways to make them better."
PayPal Founder and Facebook Backer Peter Thiel on The Next Big Thing, and Why He Thinks College Isn't Worth It
Peter Thiel, founding investor in PayPal Inc. and Facebook Inc., speaks in San Francisco, Feb. 2, 2011. (Bloomberg/Getty Images)
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By LINSEY DAVIS, MELINDA ARONS and JAKE WHITMAN
May 27, 2011
"The future is limitless," said Peter Thiel, the billionaire PayPal co-founder, hedge fund manager and venture capitalist. If you were Thiel, you'd probably think so too.
The 43-year-old Thiel has become Silicon Valley's version of the man behind the curtain in "The Wizard of Oz" by creating or funding some of the most successful enterprises to come out of the technology world.
"I think technology is the key to a better future," he said.
After attending Stanford Law School and becoming a derivatives trader, Thiel co-founded PayPal when he was 31 years old. Now he's known as the Don of the PayPal mafia -- a group of braniac executives who ran the company and have since gone on to give birth to digital pillars like YouTube and Yelp.
"That was the very basic idea -- take dollars and email and try to combine them," he said of PayPal.
That combination turned into a billion-dollar empire. EBay bought PayPal in 2002 for $1.5 billion, putting around $55 million in Thiel's pocket, which he used to invest in promising media start-ups, most famously Facebook. His $500,000 investment in the social-networking giant is now worth about $2 billion.
Billionaire to Pay Kids to Skip College Watch Video
Social Media Faux Pas to Avoid at the Office Watch Video
'Plank' Exercise Kills Australian Man Watch Video
Being Facebook's first Silicon Valley investor earned Thiel the full Hollywood treatment -- complete with a portrayal in the Academy-award winning film about the company, "The Social Network." Thiel said he spent time studying all of the social networking businesses for a few years before sitting down with Mark Zuckerberg and his team.
"I basically told them I would invest after meeting with them for an hour or so," Thiel said.
Going on gut instinct is what has made the Thiel formula for entrepreneurship such a success, but it also doesn't hurt to be a genius. Thiel was a math phenomenon as a child and became a chess champion at age 18 -- in the top 2 percent of rated players in the world.
His competitiveness has carried over into what he calls breakthrough philanthropy, although some have described it as bankrolling eccentric ideas Thiel thinks can save the world.
"Technology is fundamentally about going from zero to 1," he said. "If you do something new, it will always look a little bit strange."
Thiel has donated millions of dollars to promote research into extending human life expectancy by reversing the aging process.
"I enjoy my life," he said. "I certainly would like to live longer."
Thiel also funds The Seasteading Institute, which is devoted to creating self-governing communities -- essentially floating cities that will be used to test new ideas for government -- in the middle of the ocean. To Thiel, the concept is harnessing a largely untapped resource.
"Seventy percent of the planet is covered with water, and there's so much we can be doing with oceans, and it was one of the frontiers that people have more or less abandoned," Thiel said.
"It's pretty far in the future, but closer than, say, building cities on the moon."
The latest venture Thiel has invested in turns the notion of higher education on its head. The "Twenty under Twenty" fellowship provides $100,000 scholarships to college students who drop out of school to start their own businesses.
"Learning is good, credentialing and debt is very bad," Thiel said. "College gives people learning and also takes away future opportunities by loading the next generation down with debt."
"We ended up picking 24 people to try to get them to work on very specific projects that would push the frontiers of science and tech in areas ranging from biomedicine to computers to robotics," he said.
PayPal Founder and Facebook Backer Peter Thiel on The Next Big Thing, and Why He Thinks College Isn't Worth It
Share
Comment
Single Page
Text Size-/+
Page 2 of 2
May 27, 2011
Peter Thiel Says Higher Education Will Be the Next Bubble to Burst
While some may scoff at his idea -- after all, Thiel does have a law degree from Stanford -- he said that pushing forward with your dreams at the right time can make all the difference.
"Facebook was started in 2004. That was the right time to start that company," he said. "If all the people had finished their college education and waited till 2006, it would have been too late."
Thiel's theory also happens to come at a poignant time. U.S. News and World Report said that people aged 20 to 24 entering the work force this year face an unemployment rate of 14.9 percent -- significantly higher than the overall unemployment rate of 9 percent. New York Magazine also said the worthlessness of a college degree was "one of the year's most fashionable ideas."
Billionaire to Pay Kids to Skip College Watch Video
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/peter-thiel-paypal-founder-facebook-backer-technology-key/story?id=13702907&page=2
Social Media Faux Pas to Avoid at the Office Watch Video
'Plank' Exercise Kills Australian Man Watch Video
After correctly predicting the dot-com crash of 1999 and the housing market bubble in mid-2006, Thiel said he believes that higher education will be the next bubble to burst. According to a recent study by the National Center for Education Statistics, an estimated 65 percent of recent college graduates are burdened by student loans. The New York Times reported that total student loan debt is expected to surpass the $1 trillion mark by the end of the year.
"The price of education on a college level has gone up by a factor of more than 10 since 1980," Thiel said. "Adjusting for inflation, it's gone up by about 300 percent – more than housing and tech stocks did in the '90s, or housing in the 2000s."
Thiel's constant questioning of society's norms has made him the poster boy for Silicon Valley libertarianism -- the belief among many entrepreneurs that government hinders innovation. But he is far from the typical conservative stereotype. Openly gay, Thiel endorsed Texas Congressman Ron Paul for president in 2008.
"I probably am a bit of an outsider in many ways," Thiel said. "That has good things and bad things about it. It does have the tremendous benefit of forcing you to think about what's going on fundamentally with institutions, with our society and then look for ways to make them better."
http://articles.boston.com/2011-05-30/business/29600288_1_college-students-computer-science-program-toughest-job-markets
Tech mogul pays bright minds to skip college
Youths’ ambitions funded for 2 years
May 30, 2011|By Marcus Wohlsen, Associated Press
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SAN FRANCISCO — Instead of paying attention in high school, Nick Cammarata preferred to read books on whatever interested him. He also has a gift for coding that got him into Carnegie Mellon University’s esteemed computer science program, despite his grades.
But the 18-year-old programmer won’t be going to college this fall. Or maybe ever.
Cammarata is one of two dozen winners of a scholarship just awarded by San Francisco tech tycoon Peter Thiel that comes with a unique catch: The recipients are being paid not to go to college.
Instead, these teenagers and 20-year-olds are getting $100,000 each to chase their entrepreneurial dreams for the next two years.
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“It seems like the perfect point in our lives to pursue this kind of project,’’ says Cammarata, of Newburyport, Mass. Along with 17-year-old David Merfield, he will be working on software to upend the standard approach to teaching in high school classrooms.
Merfield, the valedictorian of his Princeton, N.J., high school class, is turning down a chance to go to Princeton University to take the fellowship.
Thiel handpicked the winners, based on the potential of their proposed projects to change the world. All the proposals have a high technology angle but otherwise span many disciplines.
One winner wants to create a mobile banking system for the developing world. Another is working to create cheaper biofuels. One wants to build robots that could help out around the house.
The prizes come at a time when debate in the United States over the value of higher education has become heated. New graduates mired in student loan debt are encountering one of the toughest job markets in decades. Rising tuitions and diminishing prospects have led many to ask whether college is worth the time and money.
“Turning people into debt slaves when they’re college students is really not how we end up building a better society,’’ Thiel says.
Thiel made his fortune as a cofounder of the online payment service PayPal shortly after graduating from Stanford Law School. He then became the first major investor in Facebook.
In conversation and as a philanthropist, Thiel pushes his strong belief that innovation has stagnated in the United States and that radical solutions are needed to push civilization forward.
The “20 Under 20’’ fellowship is one such effort. Thiel believes the best young minds can contribute more to society by skipping college and bringing their ideas straight to the real world.
The idea is not without its critics, however.
Vivek Wadhwa, the director of research at Duke University’s Center for Entrepreneurship, has assailed Thiel’s program for sending what he sees as the message that anyone can be the next Mark Zuckerberg, the founder of Facebook.
“Silicon Valley lives in its own bubble,’’ Wadhwa says. “It sees the world through its own prism. It’s got a distorted view.’’
Tech mogul pays bright minds to skip college
Youths’ ambitions funded for 2 years
May 30, 2011|By Marcus Wohlsen, Associated Press
ShareE-mailPrint
SAN FRANCISCO — Instead of paying attention in high school, Nick Cammarata preferred to read books on whatever interested him. He also has a gift for coding that got him into Carnegie Mellon University’s esteemed computer science program, despite his grades.
But the 18-year-old programmer won’t be going to college this fall. Or maybe ever.
Cammarata is one of two dozen winners of a scholarship just awarded by San Francisco tech tycoon Peter Thiel that comes with a unique catch: The recipients are being paid not to go to college.
Instead, these teenagers and 20-year-olds are getting $100,000 each to chase their entrepreneurial dreams for the next two years.
Ads by Google
Find Student Loans
Take the First Step - Get the Money You Need to Pay for College Today!
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“It seems like the perfect point in our lives to pursue this kind of project,’’ says Cammarata, of Newburyport, Mass. Along with 17-year-old David Merfield, he will be working on software to upend the standard approach to teaching in high school classrooms.
Merfield, the valedictorian of his Princeton, N.J., high school class, is turning down a chance to go to Princeton University to take the fellowship.
Thiel handpicked the winners, based on the potential of their proposed projects to change the world. All the proposals have a high technology angle but otherwise span many disciplines.
One winner wants to create a mobile banking system for the developing world. Another is working to create cheaper biofuels. One wants to build robots that could help out around the house.
The prizes come at a time when debate in the United States over the value of higher education has become heated. New graduates mired in student loan debt are encountering one of the toughest job markets in decades. Rising tuitions and diminishing prospects have led many to ask whether college is worth the time and money.
“Turning people into debt slaves when they’re college students is really not how we end up building a better society,’’ Thiel says.
Thiel made his fortune as a cofounder of the online payment service PayPal shortly after graduating from Stanford Law School. He then became the first major investor in Facebook.
In conversation and as a philanthropist, Thiel pushes his strong belief that innovation has stagnated in the United States and that radical solutions are needed to push civilization forward.
The “20 Under 20’’ fellowship is one such effort. Thiel believes the best young minds can contribute more to society by skipping college and bringing their ideas straight to the real world.
The idea is not without its critics, however.
Vivek Wadhwa, the director of research at Duke University’s Center for Entrepreneurship, has assailed Thiel’s program for sending what he sees as the message that anyone can be the next Mark Zuckerberg, the founder of Facebook.
“Silicon Valley lives in its own bubble,’’ Wadhwa says. “It sees the world through its own prism. It’s got a distorted view.’’
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/16/weekinreview/16steinberg.html?pagewanted=1
Week in Review
WORLD U.S. N.Y. / REGION BUSINESS TECHNOLOGY SCIENCE HEALTH SPORTS OPINION ARTS STYLE TRAVEL JOBS REAL ESTATE AUTOS
Plan B: Skip College
Christopher Furlong/Getty Images
GRADUATING Not everyone does.
By JACQUES STEINBERG
Published: May 15, 2010
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WHAT’S the key to success in the United States?
Related
Join the Discussion on The Choice Blog
The Choice Blog: Is College for Everyone? (May 15, 2010)
Times Topic: Vocational Training
Room for Debate: College Degrees Without Going to Class
Short of becoming a reality TV star, the answer is rote and, some would argue, rather knee-jerk: Earn a college degree.
The idea that four years of higher education will translate into a better job, higher earnings and a happier life — a refrain sure to be repeated this month at graduation ceremonies across the country — has been pounded into the heads of schoolchildren, parents and educators. But there’s an underside to that conventional wisdom. Perhaps no more than half of those who began a four-year bachelor’s degree program in the fall of 2006 will get that degree within six years, according to the latest projections from the Department of Education. (The figures don’t include transfer students, who aren’t tracked.)
For college students who ranked among the bottom quarter of their high school classes, the numbers are even more stark: 80 percent will probably never get a bachelor’s degree or even a two-year associate’s degree.
That can be a lot of tuition to pay, without a degree to show for it.
A small but influential group of economists and educators is pushing another pathway: for some students, no college at all. It’s time, they say, to develop credible alternatives for students unlikely to be successful pursuing a higher degree, or who may not be ready to do so.
Whether everyone in college needs to be there is not a new question; the subject has been hashed out in books and dissertations for years. But the economic crisis has sharpened that focus, as financially struggling states cut aid to higher education.
Among those calling for such alternatives are the economists Richard K. Vedder of Ohio University and Robert I. Lerman of American University, the political scientist Charles Murray, and James E. Rosenbaum, an education professor at Northwestern. They would steer some students toward intensive, short-term vocational and career training, through expanded high school programs and corporate apprenticeships.
“It is true that we need more nanosurgeons than we did 10 to 15 years ago,” said Professor Vedder, founder of the Center for College Affordability and Productivity, a research nonprofit in Washington. “But the numbers are still relatively small compared to the numbers of nurses’ aides we’re going to need. We will need hundreds of thousands of them over the next decade.”
And much of their training, he added, might be feasible outside the college setting.
College degrees are simply not necessary for many jobs. Of the 30 jobs projected to grow at the fastest rate over the next decade in the United States, only seven typically require a bachelor’s degree, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics.
Among the top 10 growing job categories, two require college degrees: accounting (a bachelor’s) and postsecondary teachers (a doctorate). But this growth is expected to be dwarfed by the need for registered nurses, home health aides, customer service representatives and store clerks. None of those jobs require a bachelor’s degree.
Professor Vedder likes to ask why 15 percent of mail carriers have bachelor’s degrees, according to a 1999 federal study.
“Some of them could have bought a house for what they spent on their education,” he said.
Professor Lerman, the American University economist, said some high school graduates would be better served by being taught how to behave and communicate in the workplace.
Such skills are ranked among the most desired — even ahead of educational attainment — in many surveys of employers. In one 2008 survey of more than 2,000 businesses in Washington State, employers said entry-level workers appeared to be most deficient in being able to “solve problems and make decisions,” “resolve conflict and negotiate,” “cooperate with others” and “listen actively.”
Yet despite the need, vocational programs, which might teach such skills, have been one casualty in the push for national education standards, which has been focused on preparing students for college.
While some educators propose a radical renovation of the community college system to teach work readiness, Professor Lerman advocates a significant national investment by government and employers in on-the-job apprenticeship training. He spoke with admiration, for example, about a program in the CVS pharmacy chain in which aspiring pharmacists’ assistants work as apprentices in hundreds of stores, with many going on to study to become full-fledged pharmacists themselves.
“The health field is an obvious case where the manpower situation is less than ideal,” he said. “I would try to work with some of the major employers to develop these kinds of programs to yield mastery in jobs that do demand high expertise.”
While no country has a perfect model for such programs, Professor Lerman pointed to a modest study of a German effort done last summer by an intern from that country. She found that of those who passed the Abitur, the exam that allows some Germans to attend college for almost no tuition, 40 percent chose to go into apprenticeships in trades, accounting, sales management, and computers.
“Some of the people coming out of those apprenticeships are in more demand than college graduates,” he said, “because they’ve actually managed things in the workplace.”
1 2 NEXT PAGE >
This article has been revised to reflect the following correction:
Correction: May 23, 2010
Because of an editing error, an article last Sunday exploring whether college is the right path for everyone misspelled, at one point, the surname of the president of Northwestern University, who said that a few years of college can be valuable, even if no degree is earned. As the article noted elsewhere, he is Morton Schapiro, not Shapiro.
A version of this article appeared in print on May 16, 2010, on page WK1 of the New York edition.
Plan B: Skip College
Published: May 15, 2010
RECOMMEND
TWITTER
SIGN IN TO E-MAIL
PRINT
SINGLE-PAGE
REPRINTS
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(Page 2 of 2)
Still, by urging that some students be directed away from four-year colleges, academics like Professor Lerman are touching a third rail of the education system. At the very least, they could be accused of lowering expectations for some students. Some critics go further, suggesting that the approach amounts to educational redlining, since many of the students who drop out of college are black or non-white Hispanics.
Related
Join the Discussion on The Choice Blog
The Choice Blog: Is College for Everyone? (May 15, 2010)
Times Topic: Vocational Training
Room for Debate: College Degrees Without Going to Class
Peggy Williams, a counselor at a high school in suburban New York City with a student body that is mostly black or Hispanic, understands the argument for erring on the side of pushing more students toward college.
“If we’re telling kids, ‘You can’t cut the mustard, you shouldn’t go to college or university,’ then we’re shortchanging them from experiencing an environment in which they might grow,” she said.
But Ms. Williams said she would be more willing to counsel some students away from the precollege track if her school, Mount Vernon High School, had a better vocational education alternative. Over the last decade, she said, courses in culinary arts, nursing, dentistry and heating and ventilation system repair were eliminated. Perhaps 1 percent of this year’s graduates will complete a concentration in vocational courses, she said, compared with 40 percent a decade ago.
There is another rejoinder to the case against college: People with college and graduate degrees generally earn more than those without them, and face lower risks of unemployment, according to figures from the Bureau of Labor Statistics.
Even those who experience a few years of college earn more money, on average, with less risk of unemployment, than those who merely graduate from high school, said Morton Schapiro, an economist who is the president of Northwestern University.
“You get some return even if you don’t get the sheepskin,” Mr. Schapiro said.
He warned against overlooking the intangible benefits of a college experience — even an incomplete experience — for those who might not apply what they learned directly to their chosen work.
“It’s not just about the economic return,” he said. “Some college, whether you complete it or not, contributes to aesthetic appreciation, better health and better voting behavior.”
Nonetheless, Professor Rosenbaum said, high school counselors and teachers are not doing enough to alert students unlikely to earn a college degree to the perilous road ahead.
“I’m not saying don’t get the B.A,” he said. “I’m saying, let’s get them some intervening credentials, some intervening milestones. Then, if they want to go further in their education, they can.”
< PREVIOUS PAGE 1 2
This article has been revised to reflect the following correction:
Correction: May 23, 2010
Because of an editing error, an article last Sunday exploring whether college is the right path for everyone misspelled, at one point, the surname of the president of Northwestern University, who said that a few years of college can be valuable, even if no degree is earned. As the article noted elsewhere, he is Morton Schapiro, not Shapiro.
A version of this article appeared in print on May 16, 2010, on page WK1 of the New York edition.
Week in Review
WORLD U.S. N.Y. / REGION BUSINESS TECHNOLOGY SCIENCE HEALTH SPORTS OPINION ARTS STYLE TRAVEL JOBS REAL ESTATE AUTOS
Plan B: Skip College
Christopher Furlong/Getty Images
GRADUATING Not everyone does.
By JACQUES STEINBERG
Published: May 15, 2010
RECOMMEND
SIGN IN TO E-MAIL
SINGLE-PAGE
REPRINTS
SHARE
WHAT’S the key to success in the United States?
Related
Join the Discussion on The Choice Blog
The Choice Blog: Is College for Everyone? (May 15, 2010)
Times Topic: Vocational Training
Room for Debate: College Degrees Without Going to Class
Short of becoming a reality TV star, the answer is rote and, some would argue, rather knee-jerk: Earn a college degree.
The idea that four years of higher education will translate into a better job, higher earnings and a happier life — a refrain sure to be repeated this month at graduation ceremonies across the country — has been pounded into the heads of schoolchildren, parents and educators. But there’s an underside to that conventional wisdom. Perhaps no more than half of those who began a four-year bachelor’s degree program in the fall of 2006 will get that degree within six years, according to the latest projections from the Department of Education. (The figures don’t include transfer students, who aren’t tracked.)
For college students who ranked among the bottom quarter of their high school classes, the numbers are even more stark: 80 percent will probably never get a bachelor’s degree or even a two-year associate’s degree.
That can be a lot of tuition to pay, without a degree to show for it.
A small but influential group of economists and educators is pushing another pathway: for some students, no college at all. It’s time, they say, to develop credible alternatives for students unlikely to be successful pursuing a higher degree, or who may not be ready to do so.
Whether everyone in college needs to be there is not a new question; the subject has been hashed out in books and dissertations for years. But the economic crisis has sharpened that focus, as financially struggling states cut aid to higher education.
Among those calling for such alternatives are the economists Richard K. Vedder of Ohio University and Robert I. Lerman of American University, the political scientist Charles Murray, and James E. Rosenbaum, an education professor at Northwestern. They would steer some students toward intensive, short-term vocational and career training, through expanded high school programs and corporate apprenticeships.
“It is true that we need more nanosurgeons than we did 10 to 15 years ago,” said Professor Vedder, founder of the Center for College Affordability and Productivity, a research nonprofit in Washington. “But the numbers are still relatively small compared to the numbers of nurses’ aides we’re going to need. We will need hundreds of thousands of them over the next decade.”
And much of their training, he added, might be feasible outside the college setting.
College degrees are simply not necessary for many jobs. Of the 30 jobs projected to grow at the fastest rate over the next decade in the United States, only seven typically require a bachelor’s degree, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics.
Among the top 10 growing job categories, two require college degrees: accounting (a bachelor’s) and postsecondary teachers (a doctorate). But this growth is expected to be dwarfed by the need for registered nurses, home health aides, customer service representatives and store clerks. None of those jobs require a bachelor’s degree.
Professor Vedder likes to ask why 15 percent of mail carriers have bachelor’s degrees, according to a 1999 federal study.
“Some of them could have bought a house for what they spent on their education,” he said.
Professor Lerman, the American University economist, said some high school graduates would be better served by being taught how to behave and communicate in the workplace.
Such skills are ranked among the most desired — even ahead of educational attainment — in many surveys of employers. In one 2008 survey of more than 2,000 businesses in Washington State, employers said entry-level workers appeared to be most deficient in being able to “solve problems and make decisions,” “resolve conflict and negotiate,” “cooperate with others” and “listen actively.”
Yet despite the need, vocational programs, which might teach such skills, have been one casualty in the push for national education standards, which has been focused on preparing students for college.
While some educators propose a radical renovation of the community college system to teach work readiness, Professor Lerman advocates a significant national investment by government and employers in on-the-job apprenticeship training. He spoke with admiration, for example, about a program in the CVS pharmacy chain in which aspiring pharmacists’ assistants work as apprentices in hundreds of stores, with many going on to study to become full-fledged pharmacists themselves.
“The health field is an obvious case where the manpower situation is less than ideal,” he said. “I would try to work with some of the major employers to develop these kinds of programs to yield mastery in jobs that do demand high expertise.”
While no country has a perfect model for such programs, Professor Lerman pointed to a modest study of a German effort done last summer by an intern from that country. She found that of those who passed the Abitur, the exam that allows some Germans to attend college for almost no tuition, 40 percent chose to go into apprenticeships in trades, accounting, sales management, and computers.
“Some of the people coming out of those apprenticeships are in more demand than college graduates,” he said, “because they’ve actually managed things in the workplace.”
1 2 NEXT PAGE >
This article has been revised to reflect the following correction:
Correction: May 23, 2010
Because of an editing error, an article last Sunday exploring whether college is the right path for everyone misspelled, at one point, the surname of the president of Northwestern University, who said that a few years of college can be valuable, even if no degree is earned. As the article noted elsewhere, he is Morton Schapiro, not Shapiro.
A version of this article appeared in print on May 16, 2010, on page WK1 of the New York edition.
Plan B: Skip College
Published: May 15, 2010
RECOMMEND
SIGN IN TO E-MAIL
SINGLE-PAGE
REPRINTS
SHARE
(Page 2 of 2)
Still, by urging that some students be directed away from four-year colleges, academics like Professor Lerman are touching a third rail of the education system. At the very least, they could be accused of lowering expectations for some students. Some critics go further, suggesting that the approach amounts to educational redlining, since many of the students who drop out of college are black or non-white Hispanics.
Related
Join the Discussion on The Choice Blog
The Choice Blog: Is College for Everyone? (May 15, 2010)
Times Topic: Vocational Training
Room for Debate: College Degrees Without Going to Class
Peggy Williams, a counselor at a high school in suburban New York City with a student body that is mostly black or Hispanic, understands the argument for erring on the side of pushing more students toward college.
“If we’re telling kids, ‘You can’t cut the mustard, you shouldn’t go to college or university,’ then we’re shortchanging them from experiencing an environment in which they might grow,” she said.
But Ms. Williams said she would be more willing to counsel some students away from the precollege track if her school, Mount Vernon High School, had a better vocational education alternative. Over the last decade, she said, courses in culinary arts, nursing, dentistry and heating and ventilation system repair were eliminated. Perhaps 1 percent of this year’s graduates will complete a concentration in vocational courses, she said, compared with 40 percent a decade ago.
There is another rejoinder to the case against college: People with college and graduate degrees generally earn more than those without them, and face lower risks of unemployment, according to figures from the Bureau of Labor Statistics.
Even those who experience a few years of college earn more money, on average, with less risk of unemployment, than those who merely graduate from high school, said Morton Schapiro, an economist who is the president of Northwestern University.
“You get some return even if you don’t get the sheepskin,” Mr. Schapiro said.
He warned against overlooking the intangible benefits of a college experience — even an incomplete experience — for those who might not apply what they learned directly to their chosen work.
“It’s not just about the economic return,” he said. “Some college, whether you complete it or not, contributes to aesthetic appreciation, better health and better voting behavior.”
Nonetheless, Professor Rosenbaum said, high school counselors and teachers are not doing enough to alert students unlikely to earn a college degree to the perilous road ahead.
“I’m not saying don’t get the B.A,” he said. “I’m saying, let’s get them some intervening credentials, some intervening milestones. Then, if they want to go further in their education, they can.”
< PREVIOUS PAGE 1 2
This article has been revised to reflect the following correction:
Correction: May 23, 2010
Because of an editing error, an article last Sunday exploring whether college is the right path for everyone misspelled, at one point, the surname of the president of Northwestern University, who said that a few years of college can be valuable, even if no degree is earned. As the article noted elsewhere, he is Morton Schapiro, not Shapiro.
A version of this article appeared in print on May 16, 2010, on page WK1 of the New York edition.
http://blogs.payscale.com/ask_dr_salary/2011/04/college-is-not-always-a-good-investment.html
« Pay Goes Nowhere after 40 | Main | Healthcare Hotspots »
College is Not Always a Good Investment
inShare
28
Today, we released our annual study with Bloomberg BusinessWeek on the return on investment (ROI) in education for 691 bachelor's degree granting schools.
As college costs continue to rise, the justification for paying these costs becomes ever more important. What better justification is there but a measure of their future payoff? In other words, is attending college a good investment in terms of the pay increase it offers over a high school degree?
The PayScale ROI study helps to answer this question, but the answer is not a simple yes or no. Whether attending college is a good investment or not depends upon many factors, such as the cost incurred, graduation rates at the school, major choice, and the typical pay of the school's graduates.
In this post I will briefly discuss the methodology of the study, how it changed from last year, and some key insights from the data.
Whether you went to college or not, are you earning what you are worth? Find out with a free PayScale salary report.
How do we measure College ROI?
Our main measure for College ROI is the 30-year Net Return on Investment (2011 Dollars). This ROI calculation takes in four key factors:
Cost of Attending College -- tuition and fees, room and board, books and supplies (Investment in College).
Earnings of Bachelor Degree Graduates -- this is simply the median pay of bachelor graduates from the school who hold no higher degrees.
Foregone Wages -- these are the wages one could have earned if they worked straight out of high school, rather than go to college. This is known as an opportunity cost.
Graduation Rates -- The future earnings of attending college strongly depend upon whether you graduate or not.
Taking these four factors, we calculate the 30-year Net ROI using the following steps:
Sum up the median pay for bachelor graduates who graduate between 1981 and 2010 from a given school. Note, we are using data over the last year and so these earnings figures are in current collars.
Subtract the earnings of a typical high school graduate 34-36 years after graduation. Note, the additional 4-6 years incorporates the high school wages forgone by attending college.
Subtract the total cost of attending college for a 2010 graduate.
Lastly, multiply the result by the graduation rate.
See the full methodology for more detail.
For example, assume we have a school where the Earnings Differential (Bachelor Graduate earnings less the High School Graduate earnings) is $1,000,000, the costs of attendance are $200,000 and the graduation rate is 80%. Using the steps above, we arrive at a 30-year Net ROI of $640,000.
Main Changes from Last Year:
There are four main changes from last year's ROI Package:
We included over a 100 more schools mostly based upon requests from schools not included last year.
Rather than just specify whether a school is public or private, we also categorize the schools into the following types, when applicable:
Arts, Music & Design
Business
Engineering
Ivy League
Liberal Arts
Private Research University
Based on feedback, we utilized a weighted calculation of the cost of attending school that factors in the percentage of those who graduate in 4,5, and 6 years
Last year, we simply defined schools as being 4, 5, or 6 year schools based upon the typical time to graduate and calculated their total cost based on this categorization.
This year, we instead calculate a weighted average cost based on the number of years it actually took students to graduate.
We produced an ROI calculation that incorporates Financial Aid in the form of average grants (local, state, federal or institutional) received by those who get grants.
This reduces the cost of attending school by the average amount of grants received.
Note: Very few people actually receive what is reported as the "average" amount. Typically students will either get a large portion of their education covered by grants, or little to no amount covered.
College: The Million Dollar Return?
The 5 schools with the highest 30-year Net ROI are:
Caltech -- $1,713,000
Harvey Mudd College -- $1,622,000
MIT -- $1,518,000
Princeton -- $1,494,000
Stanford -- $1,478,000
Unsurprisingly, the top of the list is dominated by well-renowned schools, engineering schools and Ivy League Schools. For these schools, even paying full freight is worth it because they truly offer $1,000,000+ returns.
However, the $1,000,000 return for a college education assured by many is only achieved by the typical graduates of 30 schools on the list -- a mere 4% of the total number of schools in the study!
Those in the bottom half of the list are hard pressed to even earn a $300,000 return. In fact, for schools at the very bottom of the list typical graduates will see a return less than $50,000!
The 5 schools with the lowest 30-year Net ROI are:
Shaw University -- $15,480
University of North Carolina at Pembroke -- $22,500 (for out-of-state students)
Davenport University -- $27,790
Chicago State University -- $34,860 (for out-of-state students)
University of Arkansas at Little Rock -- $35,890
As you can see, these numbers are a far cry from a $1,000,000 return.
It Pays to be an Engineer
The three schools with the highest 30-year Net ROI are Engineering Schools (Caltech, Harvey Mudd, and MIT). In fact, roughly a third of the top 20 schools are Engineering and no Engineering schools are in the bottom half of the rankings.
One thing that can hurt Engineering schools is graduation rates. The average graduation rate across the Engineering schools included on the list is 67% (from 91% at Harvey Mudd and MIT to 28% at Southern Polytechnic State University).
Since our ROI dollar figure is weighted by the graduation rate, a low graduation rate can really hurt. If we instead simply calculate the ROI as the difference between college graduate and high school graduate earnings and subtract the cost of school, in other words the ROI for those who earn a degree, than the picture is even brighter for engineering schools. With this change, now:
6 of the top 10 Schools are Engineering Schools
Over half of the top 20 schools are Engineering
There are no Engineering Schools in the bottom 85% of the rankings
Therefore it pays to be an engineer, especially one who graduates. :)
One way to maximize your ROI on college is to earn what you are worth. Unsure of the type of pay you can expect with your job? When you want powerful salary data and comparisons customized for your exact position or job offer, be sure to build a complete profile by taking PayScale's full salary survey.
Regards,
Katie Bardaro
Research Analyst, PayScale, Inc.
Follow Dr. Salary on Twitter
Curious about salaries? Email Dr. Salary
Compare your salary: Get a free Salary Report
Human resources your job? Stay informed about Compensation
Posted by Katie Bardaro on April 07, 2011 in PayScale Salary Survey Insights, Salary Facts & Fun, Salary Statistics | Permalink
« Pay Goes Nowhere after 40 | Main | Healthcare Hotspots »
College is Not Always a Good Investment
inShare
28
Today, we released our annual study with Bloomberg BusinessWeek on the return on investment (ROI) in education for 691 bachelor's degree granting schools.
As college costs continue to rise, the justification for paying these costs becomes ever more important. What better justification is there but a measure of their future payoff? In other words, is attending college a good investment in terms of the pay increase it offers over a high school degree?
The PayScale ROI study helps to answer this question, but the answer is not a simple yes or no. Whether attending college is a good investment or not depends upon many factors, such as the cost incurred, graduation rates at the school, major choice, and the typical pay of the school's graduates.
In this post I will briefly discuss the methodology of the study, how it changed from last year, and some key insights from the data.
Whether you went to college or not, are you earning what you are worth? Find out with a free PayScale salary report.
How do we measure College ROI?
Our main measure for College ROI is the 30-year Net Return on Investment (2011 Dollars). This ROI calculation takes in four key factors:
Cost of Attending College -- tuition and fees, room and board, books and supplies (Investment in College).
Earnings of Bachelor Degree Graduates -- this is simply the median pay of bachelor graduates from the school who hold no higher degrees.
Foregone Wages -- these are the wages one could have earned if they worked straight out of high school, rather than go to college. This is known as an opportunity cost.
Graduation Rates -- The future earnings of attending college strongly depend upon whether you graduate or not.
Taking these four factors, we calculate the 30-year Net ROI using the following steps:
Sum up the median pay for bachelor graduates who graduate between 1981 and 2010 from a given school. Note, we are using data over the last year and so these earnings figures are in current collars.
Subtract the earnings of a typical high school graduate 34-36 years after graduation. Note, the additional 4-6 years incorporates the high school wages forgone by attending college.
Subtract the total cost of attending college for a 2010 graduate.
Lastly, multiply the result by the graduation rate.
See the full methodology for more detail.
For example, assume we have a school where the Earnings Differential (Bachelor Graduate earnings less the High School Graduate earnings) is $1,000,000, the costs of attendance are $200,000 and the graduation rate is 80%. Using the steps above, we arrive at a 30-year Net ROI of $640,000.
Main Changes from Last Year:
There are four main changes from last year's ROI Package:
We included over a 100 more schools mostly based upon requests from schools not included last year.
Rather than just specify whether a school is public or private, we also categorize the schools into the following types, when applicable:
Arts, Music & Design
Business
Engineering
Ivy League
Liberal Arts
Private Research University
Based on feedback, we utilized a weighted calculation of the cost of attending school that factors in the percentage of those who graduate in 4,5, and 6 years
Last year, we simply defined schools as being 4, 5, or 6 year schools based upon the typical time to graduate and calculated their total cost based on this categorization.
This year, we instead calculate a weighted average cost based on the number of years it actually took students to graduate.
We produced an ROI calculation that incorporates Financial Aid in the form of average grants (local, state, federal or institutional) received by those who get grants.
This reduces the cost of attending school by the average amount of grants received.
Note: Very few people actually receive what is reported as the "average" amount. Typically students will either get a large portion of their education covered by grants, or little to no amount covered.
College: The Million Dollar Return?
The 5 schools with the highest 30-year Net ROI are:
Caltech -- $1,713,000
Harvey Mudd College -- $1,622,000
MIT -- $1,518,000
Princeton -- $1,494,000
Stanford -- $1,478,000
Unsurprisingly, the top of the list is dominated by well-renowned schools, engineering schools and Ivy League Schools. For these schools, even paying full freight is worth it because they truly offer $1,000,000+ returns.
However, the $1,000,000 return for a college education assured by many is only achieved by the typical graduates of 30 schools on the list -- a mere 4% of the total number of schools in the study!
Those in the bottom half of the list are hard pressed to even earn a $300,000 return. In fact, for schools at the very bottom of the list typical graduates will see a return less than $50,000!
The 5 schools with the lowest 30-year Net ROI are:
Shaw University -- $15,480
University of North Carolina at Pembroke -- $22,500 (for out-of-state students)
Davenport University -- $27,790
Chicago State University -- $34,860 (for out-of-state students)
University of Arkansas at Little Rock -- $35,890
As you can see, these numbers are a far cry from a $1,000,000 return.
It Pays to be an Engineer
The three schools with the highest 30-year Net ROI are Engineering Schools (Caltech, Harvey Mudd, and MIT). In fact, roughly a third of the top 20 schools are Engineering and no Engineering schools are in the bottom half of the rankings.
One thing that can hurt Engineering schools is graduation rates. The average graduation rate across the Engineering schools included on the list is 67% (from 91% at Harvey Mudd and MIT to 28% at Southern Polytechnic State University).
Since our ROI dollar figure is weighted by the graduation rate, a low graduation rate can really hurt. If we instead simply calculate the ROI as the difference between college graduate and high school graduate earnings and subtract the cost of school, in other words the ROI for those who earn a degree, than the picture is even brighter for engineering schools. With this change, now:
6 of the top 10 Schools are Engineering Schools
Over half of the top 20 schools are Engineering
There are no Engineering Schools in the bottom 85% of the rankings
Therefore it pays to be an engineer, especially one who graduates. :)
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Katie Bardaro
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Posted by Katie Bardaro on April 07, 2011 in PayScale Salary Survey Insights, Salary Facts & Fun, Salary Statistics | Permalink
http://news.slashdot.org/story/11/05/26/1322248/PayPal-Co-Founder-Gives-Out-100000-To-Not-Go-To-College
Paypal co-founder Peter Thiel says the key to quicker business innovation is skipping college. His foundation is handing out $100,000 to 24 people under 20 to drop out of college for two years and start companies. From the press release: "As the first members of the 20 Under 20 Thiel Fellowship, the Fellows will pursue innovative scientific and technical projects, learn entrepreneurship, and begin to build the technology companies of tomorrow. During their two-year tenure, each Fellow will receive $100,000 from the Thiel Foundation as well as mentorship from the Foundation’s network of tech entrepreneurs and innovators. The project areas for this class of fellows include biotech, career development, economics and finance, education, energy, information technology, mobility, robotics, and space."
Paypal co-founder Peter Thiel says the key to quicker business innovation is skipping college. His foundation is handing out $100,000 to 24 people under 20 to drop out of college for two years and start companies. From the press release: "As the first members of the 20 Under 20 Thiel Fellowship, the Fellows will pursue innovative scientific and technical projects, learn entrepreneurship, and begin to build the technology companies of tomorrow. During their two-year tenure, each Fellow will receive $100,000 from the Thiel Foundation as well as mentorship from the Foundation’s network of tech entrepreneurs and innovators. The project areas for this class of fellows include biotech, career development, economics and finance, education, energy, information technology, mobility, robotics, and space."
http://news.slashdot.org/story/10/12/19/0441251/Drop-Out-and-Innovate-Urges-VC-Peter-Thiel
Posted by timothy on Sunday December 19 2010, @09:17AM
from the good-work-if-you-can-get-it dept.
An anonymous reader writes
"The San Francisco-based founder of PayPal and co-founder of Facebook is offering two-year fellowships of up to $100,000 (£63,800) to 20 entrepreneurs or teams of entrepreneurs aged under 20 in a worldwide competition that closes this week. With the money, the recipients are expected to drop out of university — Thiel calls it 'stopping out' — and work full time on their ideas. 'Some of the world's most transformational technologies were created by people who stopped out of school because they had ideas that couldn't wait until graduation,' Thiel says. 'This fellowship will encourage the most brilliant and promising young people not to wait on their ideas either.' Thiel says the huge cost of higher education, and the resulting burden of debt, makes students less willing to take risks. 'And we think you're going to have to take a lot of risks to build the next generation of companies.'"
Posted by timothy on Sunday December 19 2010, @09:17AM
from the good-work-if-you-can-get-it dept.
An anonymous reader writes
"The San Francisco-based founder of PayPal and co-founder of Facebook is offering two-year fellowships of up to $100,000 (£63,800) to 20 entrepreneurs or teams of entrepreneurs aged under 20 in a worldwide competition that closes this week. With the money, the recipients are expected to drop out of university — Thiel calls it 'stopping out' — and work full time on their ideas. 'Some of the world's most transformational technologies were created by people who stopped out of school because they had ideas that couldn't wait until graduation,' Thiel says. 'This fellowship will encourage the most brilliant and promising young people not to wait on their ideas either.' Thiel says the huge cost of higher education, and the resulting burden of debt, makes students less willing to take risks. 'And we think you're going to have to take a lot of risks to build the next generation of companies.'"
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